Braking in a turn.

Post your technique questions here!

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Cashie
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#16 Post by Cashie » Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:03 pm

Wow, this is a lot of really good information. Thanks everyone! I haven't seen a stupid question yet.

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#17 Post by Jello_Biafra » Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:38 pm

There's never a stupid question about a machine who's natural resting state is on it's side. :shock:

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#18 Post by Cashie » Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:40 pm

I agree. And I'm glad the question, and the followups were asked.

Don't put a saddle on a horse that can't be tamed. There's something beautiful about a free spirit.

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#19 Post by CrashDummy » Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:17 pm

The instructor at a CPR class started off by saying that there was no such thing as a stupid queston. A co-worker, Ziggy, then asked if there was no one around could you perform CPR on yourself? The teacher got this look on her face like she had just been proven wrong.
How to make a small fortune racing ... start with a large one.

Go into a corner with a little less speed and come out faster

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#20 Post by CrashDummy » Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:54 pm

Here's an article I copied out of a motorcycle magazine a few years ago. I can't remember which magazine it was.

Technique:

Once upon a time you only used the brakes on your motorcycle when you were straight up and down and traveling in a straight line. That was because tires were made of wood, frames were wobbly, gearboxes were hard to shift and brakes made you want to leave plenty of room to jump clear in case of nonperformance. Those days are gone. With today’s bikes, and in particular today’s tires, learning to brake all the way into the apex of corners is fun, and can be good for your continued survival if done correctly.

The main thing to remember----actually, you don’t have to remember it, your motorcycle will remind you----is your bike will want to stand up when you apply the brake lever (and pedal) while leaned over. Don’t panic----it’s the laws of physics at work, and those laws work harder the shorter and steeper-raked your bike is. Part of it has to do with the tires’ contact patches moving to the sides of the tread; part has to do with deceleration making the front tire want to turn in tighter, thereby steering the bike upright. Whatever the causes, all you need to do is anticipate your bike’s reaction so you can counter it with more countersteering pressure: Force it down into the corner through the handlebars and with the inside of your thigh. Make it suffer, scrub off speed....

Why bother? At the track, trail-braking into a corner is usually the fastest way through, because it allows you to carry speed further down the straight that preceded it and minimizes deceleration time. The decrease in rake and trail while you’re on the brakes makes your bike carve a tighter line, and engine-braking increases as the rear-tire circumference diminishes at the tire’s edge and raises rpm. Take advantage of it.

On the street, it seems obvious enough that being proficient at turning and braking simultaneously can only be a good thing in an emergency situation---you’ll be thankful for this skill when you’ve overcooked a corner entrance and you’re not interested in stepping on the rear brake, standing the bike up and rocketing off the road into a grove of trees. But it’s also a ride-enhancing thing. Naturally you’re not going to gas it full speed up to corners on the street (most of the time), but you’re not sampling all your modern sportbike’s performance if you don’t learn to crank it into corners with the brakes on. (Use the rear, too, to reduce forward pitch, though don’t overdo it.) As always, practice this skill gradually, bit by bit.
How to make a small fortune racing ... start with a large one.

Go into a corner with a little less speed and come out faster

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#21 Post by Chill » Sun Jul 15, 2007 7:04 pm

Wow. That was a good article. I will save this one.

CrashDummy, :lol:

Thx
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#22 Post by Flap » Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:11 pm

Hi,

JelloBiafra has written it down exactly they way it is, BUT:
As a nOOb I would not practise that on the streets, please do go on a trackday and have an instructor lead you into turn braking maneuvers, it goes haywire a lot faster than you might think, if you are unexperienced.
New gear and hospital bills are way more expensive than a trackday. ;)

The best advice for somebody new imho is:
Lean lean lean!
Trust your tires (unless you got crappy ones...lol, but even the worst tires should be able to "take it"), the angles you can ride are usually waaaaayyyy beyond what regular street riders are able and gutsy enough to do.
And LOOK where you want to go, don't look into the field, focus on the road you want to stay on.

The secret is to hold it stable, not jiggle and wiggle and make panicy motions, just keep the line and lean more, trust your bike. And don't resort to pulling on the handle bars or holding yourself, it is common as a slight panic reaction that riders clutch their handlebars like they want to squeeze the remaining life out of them, don't do it, remain calm, keep the grip you had before and lean.
Bikes are steered and ridden over the front wheel (not sure,if my English is sufficient enought to explain/translate that), so don't disturb your wheel while it's doing its job. 8)

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#23 Post by Scarlett » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:04 pm

As usual great advice Jana

since I got the little 250 I've been much bolder and played around with the brakes A LOT!

Different bikes do different things but at the end of the day they all want to fall down if you don't pay attention.

LOOK where you're going amazing how your eyes lead your heart and DO NOT lose faith in the apex just follow through look where you want to go.

That weight on the opposite peg advice in Jesse's track day thread is GOLDEN. Amazing how you can push these things around.

Woo ooo So much fun!!!
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#24 Post by Jello_Biafra » Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:50 pm

Flap wrote:Hi,

JelloBiafra has written it down exactly they way it is,
:love

and I think you may find that I didn't suggest trying it on the street as well. Hmph!

Regarding driving the front wheel, I think this is understated. One of the biggest gripes that people have is regarding front end slip. These are the same people that corner with their body perpindicular to their seat! Get your upper body low, forward and over the tank, put some weight over the front end. I used to complain about the front end, even tried crazy staggered air pressures. Now my body positioning is much better and the bike is much more balanced.

So, when are we gonna ride together? :P

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#25 Post by Chill » Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:18 pm

I can totally understand everyone's concern when it comes to newbie's like me trying new techniques, but I gotta learn what to do in an emergency situation. I ride on the street a lot and can't really afford to wait til a track day to try new things. I promise to be careful, but I don't see any other way to learn.

I want to know as much as possible so that I have some options. People can not drive out there!

Thanks for all your responses.
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#26 Post by CrashDummy » Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:36 am

An easy way to practice the technique is find a wide street with no one near you and weave side to side. Lightly apply the brakes as you lean to one side than the other. Braking in a turn is a good skill to have in your arsenal to survive. Sometimes entering a turn you spot sand or fluid at the last minute and realize your lean angle will need to be limited. It is much quicker just to brake as you're tuning than to straighten the bike back up, hit the brakes then lean it over again.
How to make a small fortune racing ... start with a large one.

Go into a corner with a little less speed and come out faster

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#27 Post by Chill » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:55 pm

yea yea...that's what I mean. Last minute stuff.

Thanks again
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#28 Post by SabreSarah » Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:02 pm

I've had some problems recently with some intense curves. When i seem to lean or get into a curve going pretty quickly, like on the 17, my handle bars and complete front end start wobbling... Like there are bumps in the road almost... ?

I DO have a cruiser, which may be different than sport bike diagnostics regarding that, but I feel like it's either a crappy road, or my alignment is off or something.

What do you guys think? On the 9 it's not like that, and the road is better.. so maybe it's just the road? Any other people have this problem sometimes?
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#29 Post by CrashDummy » Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:29 pm

It sounds like you're pushing the old Sabre to its limit on 17. :lol: Quick, get this girl to a track. The fact it's fine on 9 makes me think the higher speed on 17 is just enough to put the bike's suspension to its limit. Do the shocks have the original oil in them? Are the seals leaking? Do the tires look like they're wearing normally. Is the steering head bearing loose? My buddy Clark just adjusted Christen's 600 steering head bearing. It was really loose.
How to make a small fortune racing ... start with a large one.

Go into a corner with a little less speed and come out faster

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#30 Post by Scarlett » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:26 am

Sarah does your saber have cast or spoke wheels? Sounds like maybe the tires are hard (how old are they) out of balance or possibly a bent rim. If it has lace wheels maybe the wheels need to be tuned.
Yikes!
"If it has tires or testicles, you're going to have trouble with it"

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